Price of Progress: Kithkin Testing
Will Price | November 22, 2008 | 11:53 amI’m glad that the Greedy Grixis list I posted got such a positive response. As promised, I have done some more testing since then. Aside from the random games on Modo and MWS (which I have been crushing) I decided to play a set against Kithkin with my friend Zeilend.
Before I get into the details of the matchup, I am going to go over a few changes to the list. Here is the list I initially tested this morning:
Greedy Grixis V2
Ajani Vengeant x3
Esper Charm x4
Bitterblossom x4
Cryptic Command x4
Sower of Temptation x3
Mulldrifter x4
Makeshift Mannequin x4
Reveillark x2
Siege-Gang Commander x3
Fulminator Mage x4
Shivan Reef x1
Underground River x1
Sulfurous Springs x1
Caves of Koilos x1
Rugged Prairie x1
Cascade Bluffs x3
Mystic Gate x1
Reflecting Pool x4
Sunken Ruins x4
Crumbling Necropolis x4
Arcane Sanctum x4
The big changes from the last list are -2 Shriekmaw, -3 Grixis Charm, +4 Esper Charm, +1 Reveillark. The Lark was added in because he has been good whenever I draw him, and a couple people commented that they thought more would be better. Grixis Charm and Shriekmaw were removed because I had been taking beatings on having these “bad” cards in my deck all week from both Gerard (Fabiano) and Jacob (Van Lunen). Jake was high on Esper Charm in general, and I decided to give it a try.
Since Zeilend is in Japan, and we both have Macs, we arranged to play over WebWizard, the Mac version of MWS (follow link to download, there are not many people on and it would be great to get more people playing).
I am not going to go into game-by-game breakdown, but the pre-board games were not pretty. I kept getting blown out by timely Unmakes and Rustic Clachan Reinforcements. At first I was pretty confused because I had played against Kithkin and WW variants a lot on MWS before and I have maybe only lost once or twice total to the deck. The difference was that she knew my list and was not playing around any kind of mass removal. When playing against random opponents I think they are often confusing this deck for some kind of 5c control and fear a Wrath or Firespout, so they hold back additional creatures and don’t apply enough pressure, allowing me to take control of the game with a Sower or Siege-Gang. Esper Charm was dead in this matchup, I was always under a lot of pressure and could never spend my mana to play it. I was very short on removal main deck since I no longer had Shriekmaw or Grixis Charm to help me keep her board from getting too built up.
I got crushed pre-board, so I reverted to the old build (Shriekmaw and Grixis back in) then we played a few games with sideboard. I brought in a third Shriekmaw and 3 Infest for the Fulminator Mages. They seemed like the best thing to take out, even though they have a lot of value against Mutavaults and Hideaway lands. I did not lose any games after sideboard. The highlight was Sowering her singleton Mirror Entity (Zeilend was using the list the got second from NY states), then using it to pump up my army of goblin tokens. Shriekmaw + Mannequin is a huge beating for Kithkin, and combined with Infest I was often making it to turn 5 or 6 with 15 or more life.
The big thing I learned is that it is always correct to play Bitterblossom on turn 2. This sounds obvious, but there was one game in the pre-board set that we played where I am pretty sure I would have won if I had played the Bitterblossom instead of playing my second Arcane Sanctum. I was worried that if I didn’t play my second CIP Tapped land then I would not be able to curve out into my Ajani. Of course, by not playing the Bitterblossom, I had no creatures on the board when I played my Ajani on turn 4 and it ended up just being an expensive Lightning Helix. I could have just played the Bitterblossom turn 2, played Arcane Sanctum turn 3 (foregoing the Fulminator Mage play, which did pretty much nothing against her two first-strikers) and still have been able to hit Ajani turn 4, but with two faerie tokens to protect.
In general I still think that Kithkin is a good Matchup for Greedy Grixis. Are there any other sideboard cards I should be considering? I don’t think I need to commit more than 4 cards to aggro in general. The Philly 5k is two weeks away now and I am getting excited. Is anyone else going to the 5k? Has anyone else gotten a chance to try out Greedy Grixis? Let me know with comments!
Tell Your Friends!
-WillPoP
A couple of thoughts:
Why are you boarding Infest instead of Firespout?
I think you should try the deck with a vivid land mana base instead of a tri-land mana base. I played 5cc during block season and my deck had Runed Halo, Shriekmaw, Firespout, Crytpic Command and Cloudthresher and I basically never ran into mana trouble.
Right now the only plays that this deck has <4 that can affect the board (assuming your opponent does not cast Bitterblossom) are Bitterblossom and Fulminator Mage. Without any sweepers, you’re always going to be working extra hard to get back in the game. If your opponent has a timely removal spell, or some burn, you might never get a chance to play your game.
I’d want to add another card to help get the deck into the midgame (where it has a million good things to do). Ideas that come to mind are the Shriekmaws (that you cut), Agony Warp, Mind Stone, Kitchen Finks, Rhox War Monk, Remove Soul and Broken Ambitions.
-Sadin
Steve, after getting blown out in the pre-board games Will reverted back to the original build, as we both decided that cutting Shriekmaw was probably the dumbest thing ever. The decklist that was posted today has (I think) been pretty much completely scrapped and the non-Reveillark changes reversed. Also, if I’m not mistaken, the Infests are in over Firespout solely due to Forge-Tender.
I do agree, however, that there should be some form of mass removal maindeck.
The one advantage to Infest is that it can’t be countered by Burrenton-Forge Tender. I have been thinking about shifting to vivid lands, I will try changing the mana around.
I’m not really sure about Mannequin in this list, at least as a four of. Your targets on curve are Evoked Mulldrifters and Fulminator Mages only (although admittedly you have plenty of other things to do, if you want, at 4). It seems like that means that most of the time Mannequins will sit in your hand for a long time while you play other stuff and hope it dies, and will only occasionally be played on four in a worthwhile way (by that I mean that sometimes spending two turns getting a 2/2, albeit drawing cards, or getting 2/2s that blow up lands is a pretty good way to get very, very behind against aggro). I’d imagine you could afford to drop a Mannequin, if not two. You might want to replace them with things to do early, cards that won’t just sit in your hand for a long time, as Sadin suggested.
I don’t know if even this Standard’s crazy mana can support it, but is there any way to switch the deck around a bit to fit in Demigod and/or Figure of Destiny? The way I see it, this deck is pretty tempo-oriented, and usually when tempo is in your favor you want to win as quickly as possible (this is where Demigod comes in) before your opponent can recover from your disruption. Demigod is especially awesome in a deck like this that intends to see more than 1 card a turn.
Figure I just see as a good thing to do early (taking up multiple turns, in fact) which this deck can really use. It’s certainly weakened by your interest in playing CIPT lands on turn 1, and in this way, as well as the mana issue, it might be horrible.
I played the first list card-for-card on modo and got blown the *bleep* out in the first round of a Q. I had completely forgotten about infest, which would have (in return) blown him out in both games. I think I might put some in the board and take it for another run, because my teammate who is testing the deck has pretty much just fallen in love with it.
I should clarify: I was blown out by Kithkin in that Q.
Actually, looking at your manabase, only 1 land in your whole deck doesn’t help you cast Demigod, so if he’s at all interesting he is definitely castable.
I think your instincts on reworking the mana are probably right. I really can’t feel it out properly without cards in front of me. I did sketch up a little table, and the first ting that jumped out at me is that I think your numbers on Cascade Bluffs and Sunken Ruins are backward. You really never have need for BB in a case where RR wouldn’t suffice, and you do have SGC with RR costs. Maybe change that and compensate by switching a R out of one of your painlands for a B?
The vivid lands have the distinct advantage of being able to have the most specialized sideboard possible, so it would seem worth testing that base versus the tri-lands. I would hazard that you will probably still want to keep a few, though.
Firespout is still good in a few matchups that infest isn’t, but that forgetender value may be important to you. Perhaps a split is in order?
I have actually tried Demigod in a previous build, but ended up replacing it with the 3 Siege-Gang/1 Reveillark. I should try to find the original build and post it, because it is incredibly different. The original build literally had no way to win other than Bitterblossom and Ajani Vengeant, so I tried Demigod for a bit before I realized he really doesn’t synergize with Mannequin (have to actually play him to get the trigger) so like I said I moved on to Siege-Gang, which has been awesome in many different ways.
I am starting to believe that 4 Mannequins may be too many as well. There are definitely times where they sit in my hand because I didn’t get a Mulldrifter or Fulminator Mage in the bin early.
Another card I was considering for a while was Ashling, the Extinguisher. Has anyone ever tried her out? If I cut 1-2 Mannequin what should I put in?
MWS for the Mac? When I get back from my vacation I’ll be all over that stuff.
Like you wanted me, callin’ me, all the time.
I like the column.
Yes, I agree, this column is much better than Jake’s column.
It just has a better name.
I was playing the first list you posted almost card for card on MWS, the only changes I made were changing Arcane Santcums to Vivid Marshes, which helped the mana a bit, and adding a 61st card in a second Lark because Lark was so good and I didn’t know what to cut. It’s doing great on MWS so far, but I kept wanting a MD sweeper. I’m thinking about cutting one Mannequin and one Sower for two Infest, but after that I’m not so sure of where to make changes for sweepers.
What does your SB look like so far, aside from 4x sweeper? I had 4x Thoughtseize for Faeries and Planeswalkers, but the Faerie matchup has been poor so far. Planeswalkers was easy as long as they don’t get a turn 3/4 Ajani.
[...] I played Will Price of Progress’s Greedy Grixis deck as described in Price of Progress: Kithkin Testing. [...]